Curse

Rhuobhe · Jan 23, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Yes.
It was your decision, and therefore your fault. You knew that there were four character slots only. Either pvp with your pve characters, delete and make a pvp toon, or wait until Factions for more slot(s).

I'm glad someone said this. Here is my reply in the same fasion as your argument:

It was your decision not to make a PvE warrior, and therefore your fault for not having a HoD Helm.
You knew that the HoD helm was a PvE only item.
Either PvP with your PvP characters, delete and make a PvE toon, or wait until Factions for more slot(s).

I don't see how your argument holds any more merit than mine.

Either they are both valid, or they are both moot.

Quote:

Don't expect Anet to hold your hand through the whole game. PvE characters are usually "good enough" for most pvp, and as the whole Lt.'s Helm thing shows, even have an advantage.

Don't expect Anet to hold your hand through the whole game. PvP characters ARE "good enough" for pvp, and as the whole have any mod/weapon/rune/armor/shield you want, even have an advantage.

JR · Jan 23, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Yes.
It was your decision, and therefore your fault. You knew that there were four character slots only. Either pvp with your pve characters, delete and make a pvp toon, or wait until Factions for more slot(s).

Don't expect Anet to hold your hand through the whole game. PvE characters are usually "good enough" for most pvp, and as the whole Lt.'s Helm thing shows, even have an advantage.

Exactly.

And if you are going to PvP enough to have all of your runes and upgrades factioned for when you tweak up your PvE character, you may aswell just have a PvP slot.

Personally I have played through the PvE side of the game with 7 characters over two accounts. After I completed the game with them and finished unlocking, most of them got deleted to give me free slots. I don't really understand the sentimental mentality somepeople have towards old PvE characters that they may barely even use.

And as pointed out, PvE characters CAN have an advantage in PvP. It costs a lot to kit them out, but that's basicly paying for the advantage that you get. Armor switching, multiple customised weapon sets, rune swapping... And thats only really all important at high level PvP. If you are just playing the odd fun GvG or few rounds in comp arena... what does the 10 hp difference between a major or sup vigor count for? What does it matter if your sword is +28hp and not +30... etc.

In short: Don't whine about the cost, unless it actually really matters to you. And chances are if you are unwilling to keep a slot free for a PvP character, you don't care enough about PvP for perfect equipment to really matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

It was your decision not to make a PvE warrior, and therefore your fault for not having a HoD Helm.
You knew that the HoD helm was a PvE only item.
Either PvP with your PvP characters, delete and make a PvE toon, or wait until Factions for more slot(s).

Yay for yet another PvE player ENTIRELY missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with PvE vs PvP, and the advantages or disadvantages of one vs the other. The point simply is that the HoD helm is BROKEN, IMBALANCED, OVERPOWERED. Regardless of whether it was available of PvP characters or not.

Sigh.

Rhuobhe · Jan 23, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Exactly.

And if you are going to PvP enough to have all of your runes and upgrades factioned for when you tweak up your PvE character, you may aswell just have a PvP slot.

Personally I have played through the PvE side of the game with 7 characters over two accounts. After I completed the game with them and finished unlocking, most of them got deleted to give me free slots. I don't really understand the sentimental mentality somepeople have towards old PvE characters that they may barely even use.

I think what you're saying here is that nobody finds any value from a character after they beat the game save for sentimental value. Not true, a lot of people keep the toons around for active PvE.

I'm not trying to be "wise", or annoying or anything here, but I honestly think that both sides of the coin need to be exposed. I'm offering suggestions on how to make it UNIVERSALLY fair and balanced, you and Sef II are offering suggestions to make it balanced for PvP players ONLY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

In short: Don't whine about the cost, unless it actually really matters to you. And chances are if you are unwilling to keep a slot free for a PvP character, you don't care enough about PvP for perfect equipment to really matter.

Sigh...
"Don't whine about the advantage of the HoD helm unless it really matters to you. And chances are if you are not willing to make a PvE toon, outfit him/her, get the helm, cap the elites, etc. then you don't care enough about high level PvP for it to matter."

And in regards to your comment about a PvE player missing the point... no I didn't miss it, I know what the argument is.
I think if all PvP toons had the option of equipping the helm at creation then they would not be complaining.

All I ask is that those who argue clearly and only in favor of the PvP players side take a step back and examine the situation and try to understand that not everyone WANTS to have a slot for PvP only yet they may still WANT to do PvP from time to time.

And, I believe (please tell me if you don't) that they deserve a fair fight just the same as PvP toons do.

JR · Jan 23, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

I think what you're saying here is that nobody finds any value from a character after they beat the game save for sentimental value. Not true, a lot of people keep the toons around for active PvE.

I'm not trying to be "wise", or annoying or anything here, but I honestly think that both sides of the coin need to be exposed. I'm offering suggestions on how to make it UNIVERSALLY fair and balanced, you and Sef II are offering suggestions to make it balanced for PvP players ONLY.

How could it be unbalanced for PvE players? You are fighting AI monsters, you are not fighting AI monsters with Henge helms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

Sigh...
"Don't whine about the advantage of the HoD helm unless it really matters to you. And chances are if you are not willing to make a PvE toon, outfit him/her, get the helm, cap the elites, etc. then you don't care enough about high level PvP for it to matter."

This is where you are wrong, if I played warrior in PvP I would have a PvE warrior with max gear and a henge helm. Absolutely no doubt about it. I don't play a warrior, so I don't. I have a PvP ready PvE monk, however. 4 green staffs, focus sets, negative energy sets, changeable headgears, max armor... Many of the people arguing for this change ARE PvP players with the helm. Take Ensign for example, arguing that it is overpowered despite the fact that his guild runs a GvG build with 3 warriors that ALL use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

And in regards to your comment about a PvE player missing the point... no I didn't miss it, I know what the argument is.
I think if all PvP toons had the option of equipping the helm at creation then they would not be complaining.

You obviously do miss the point, because this has nothing to do with how available the helm is. Or who it is available to. The problem is that it is available at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

All I ask is that those who argue clearly and only in favor of the PvP players side take a step back and examine the situation and try to understand that not everyone WANTS to have a slot for PvP only yet they may still WANT to do PvP from time to time.

Yet again, pretty conclusive evidence that you DO miss the point. PvP side? What are you talking about? There is no PvP side in this argument. There are those who think the Henge helm is overpowered, and those who don't. What you are saying here has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

And, I believe (please tell me if you don't) that they deserve a fair fight just the same as PvP toons do.

....? Again, I do not understand what you are trying to get at. The fact that PvE characters can get the helm but PvP players can't somehow makes them balanced? Er... No?

kvndoom · Jan 23, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Fatty Fatty Boomballati · Jan 23, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

1. PvP characters don't have access to better weapons; in fact, PvE characters have far more choices, such as the +xx% always, -health/energy/regen weapons; shields with +health always and quick recovery from conditions; the -energy weapons and focii; and 10/10 fast cast/recharge all spells.

2. There's really no choice in Warrior armor except the color (or FoW armor if you felt like it.) Even if there was a choice, it wouldn't kill a PvE Warrior to bring two sets of armor. In fact, they already do for the helms, which is one of the reasons the Lieutenant's Helm is a problem.

3. Shortening hexes by 50%, or at least the assumption that every Warrior has that ability, is far from a small advantage if you bothered reading the 100-some posts before this. It's pretty much the only helm my Warrior's worn for the past few months, and I've happily enjoyed the Hexes that lasted only a few seconds.

I find it interesting that the Assassin armor includes inbuilt Deep Wound and Bleeding quick recovery mods. It seems Anet is moving to make much more diverse armor among the professions, and probably a nerfed Lieutenant's Helm available for PvP Warriors.

The point is it is not overpowered.
1. it has less armor (not signififcantly less but still)
2. You have to have a PvE warrior to have it
3. Only warriors can have it
4. You still have to go through PvE to get it.
5. The helm is not broken it just has a different mod on it.
6. In PvE you need to buy a 100k weapon justto get even with the PvP weapons, Oh and Runes.
7. People who start a PvE character according to you should not be allowed to play PvP.
8. It probably won't kill your build to bring Warstel's Worry because you are already running a hex build right?
9. You make a point though, it may be hard for necromancers to adjust to this.

Fatty Fatty Boomballati · Jan 23, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Didn't some of the Developers say that this game was oriented at both PvP and PvvE and that they are trying to make them less seperate?

Seef II · Jan 23, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

I'm glad someone said this. Here is my reply in the same fasion as your argument:

It was your decision not to make a PvE warrior, and therefore your fault for not having a HoD Helm.
You knew that the HoD helm was a PvE only item.
Either PvP with your PvP characters, delete and make a PvE toon, or wait until Factions for more slot(s).

I don't see how your argument holds any more merit than mine.

Either they are both valid, or they are both moot.

Don't expect Anet to hold your hand through the whole game. PvP characters ARE "good enough" for pvp, and as the whole have any mod/weapon/rune/armor/shield you want, even have an advantage.

Do you know which warrior I pvp on? It's my pve one, my first character. Do you know why?

The Lieutenant's Helm. (and to a lesser effect, tanzit's defender and other helm switches)

I don't care too greatly about not having perfect mods (since my warrior is mainly farming, all my weapons are "in stance", but Sprint/Frenzy cover it) but the Lieutenant's Helm has been extremely useful both in pvp and doing whatever in pve.

I've a pvp-ready PvE monk (with armors, negative energy, runes, etc.) as well. I'd go into pvp with her rather than make a pvp toon, because I spent the effort and have more or less perfect equipment, it doesn't make much sense for me to roll a sub-par PvP monk.

Basically, I'm arguing for pvp balance, even though I'm primarily pve, I care about both sides of the game because it's in Anet's best interest to keep a strong, variable metagame. We don't want a repeat of spirit spam (grr Ritualists) nor teams running nothing but warriors (IWAY). When the game becomes who-can-execute-one-build-with-fewer-mistakes, it gets boring. This is why many PvP players tend to find killing mindless gryphons and trolls rather dull.

Quote:

How could it be unbalanced for PvE players? You are fighting AI monsters, you are not fighting AI monsters with Henge helms.

If anything it's unbalanced for the monsters. Of course, since they don't really talk, save for the PvP training "gg", you can't hear them bitch and whine about Deep Freeze only sticking for 5 s, or spiteful for a meager 10 s. I've heard some pve players complain about Diversion etc. not sticking on PvE bosses for their full duration... now are you sort of seeing the problem?

Deathqueen · Jan 23, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

No (smile) and I'll tell you why. One thing you can never achieve balance in a mutiplayer atmosphere unless everyone has the same equipment like the snowball fights during wintersday. That was the only balanced aspect of GW's. PVE is not balanced because you have invici-classes that can solo high end content. PVP is not balanced because of reasons mentioned not in this thread but many others. It comes down to a fine line of not what is balanced, but, what is 'reasonably fair'. That's as close to balance they will ever get.

Hod Helm or no Hod helm there are many many many other things that a PVE to PVP character can and does do that a pre-made or custom made will never be able to do. And if they nerf that, you'll see a mass exodus of people that played their PVE characters up to PVP because it will be to them like nerfing everything they put in their time and worked for.

But, if all you want is a bunch of premades or custom mades without any specialties, just plain jane carbon copies of everyone else, that is the only way you will achieve balance in the PVP game.

This is just another game that proves a point, you should never try to couple a PVE environment with a PVP environment. Segregation is the only way both will be fair to both types of players.

Murder In China · Jan 23, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

They want you to play PvE.

JR · Jan 23, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatty Fatty Boomballati

The point is it is not overpowered.

It HALVES hex duration. How is that in any way not overpowered? Just by being there it near enough makes your mesmer or necromancers half as usefull. It is a major factor towards warrior heavy builds being viable, and hex builds being less so. For an item to be actually effecting builds in high level PvP, is very very wrong in my opinion. Maybe you don't agree, because you just aren't seeing how much it is used.

Go to observer mode, and watch every top 50 guild. Count how many of them are using PvE warriors. I can almost garauntee that every one of those warriors has a henge helm either equipped or in their inventory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Hod Helm or no Hod helm there are many many many other things that a PVE to PVP character can and does do that a pre-made or custom made will never be able to do. And if they nerf that, you'll see a mass exodus of people that played their PVE characters up to PVP because it will be to them like nerfing everything they put in their time and worked for.

Armor swapping still makes creating a PvP ready PvE character worth it. Changing the HoD helm to 20% reduced hex duration is not going to be as big a deal as is being made out here. I don't really understand what the fuss is. To me it's an item that is clearly unbalancing the game, and a small tweak like that would solve the problem. How people can argue against that is beyond me.

lishi · Jan 23, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatty Fatty Boomballati

The point is it is not overpowered.
1. it has less armor (not signififcantly less but still)
2. You have to have a PvE warrior to have it
3. Only warriors can have it
4. You still have to go through PvE to get it.
5. The helm is not broken it just has a different mod on it.
6. In PvE you need to buy a 100k weapon justto get even with the PvP weapons, Oh and Runes.
7. People who start a PvE character according to you should not be allowed to play PvP.
8. It probably won't kill your build to bring Warstel's Worry because you are already running a hex build right?
9. You make a point though, it may be hard for necromancers to adjust to this.

ok , did you have played warrior in pvp?

becouse if you did you will know 50% less duration is overpowered.

and im not whinning abount i dont have one , i actualy buyed 5 set ....

Fatty Fatty Boomballati · Jan 23, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It HALVES hex duration. How is that in any way not overpowered? Just by being there it near enough makes your mesmer or necromancers half as usefull.

Would you rather everyone in the game had the same equipment?
I personally like the variety. And im not saying this because i have a warrior, because I don't. I even have a mesmer. I just make sure to bring Warstel's Worry along and everything will be fine. If you cant have warstels bring distortion and attack the casters.

Deathqueen · Jan 23, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

No one seems to want to raise the point that necro and mesmer degens are overpowering though. You ever had a mass of them on you at once? Notice how quickly you die? Is this balanced? Is this fair? I as a Warrior can't kill them in 5 seconds, neither should they me. (smile)

Fatty Fatty Boomballati · Jan 23, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

ok , did you have played warrior in pvp?

becouse if you did you will know 50% less duration is overpowered.

and im not whinning abount i dont have one , i actualy buyed 5 set ....

Once again, Yes i have played a PvP warrior.. and i have played a PvP mesmer, and to some extent a necro (but not much).

And could you clarify the last line it confused me.

JR · Jan 23, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatty Fatty Boomballati

Would you rather everyone in the game had the same equipment?
I personally like the variety. And im not saying this because i have a warrior, because I don't. I even have a mesmer. I just make sure to bring Warstel's Worry along and everything will be fine. If you cant have warstels bring distortion and attack the casters.

There is an absolutely vast chasm between variety and imbalance. I love variety, it's a wonderfull thing. Which is why I am suggested make the Henge helm 20%, not to take it out of the game.

Do you not think that having to put a skill (and therefore a class) in your build, just to counter a piece of equipment is slightly... stupid?

Rhuobhe · Jan 23, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

JR-, Seef II, and all others who believe in the last few posts of thiers:

If you want balance, than you will have to define what balance is.

If you want fairness, then you will have to define what fairness is.

To me, these 2 terms without any doubt imply that every player, regardless of gender, skin color, age, height, social standing, or PLAY STYLE PREFERENCE have the SAME opportunities when facing off in PvP.

You seem to be open to nerfing the HoD Helm for reasons previously stated. Fine.

However you seem to be against the very premise of my idea in post #156: Equality, Fairness, and Balance on a Level Playing Ground for ALL players.

And because of this, I know there is nothing I can do to convince you that I am right. But at least others who read this thread will know the truth.

I think I'm done arguing about fairness, balance, and seperation of P & E.

Whatever the outcome, in the end nobody will be hurt if true balance is achieved. I'm sorry to see that you are both adamantly against that.

No hard feelings of course

Fatty Fatty Boomballati · Jan 23, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

No one seems to want to raise the point that necro and mesmer degens are overpowering though. You ever had a mass of them on you at once? Notice how quickly you die? Is this balanced? Is this fair? I as a Warrior can't kill them in 5 seconds, neither should they me. (smile)

I agree until they can bring the assasin in I say leave the helm seeing as there is only one main melee class. Of course I've seen good R/W but you get the point.

Fatty Fatty Boomballati · Jan 24, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There is an absolutely vast chasm between variety and imbalance. I love variety, it's a wonderfull thing. Which is why I am suggested make the Henge helm 20%, not to take it out of the game.

Do you not think that having to put a skill (and therefore a class) in your build, just to counter a piece of equipment is slightly... stupid?

Like bringing interupts to counter trapper balls? Or better yet frozen soil to counter IWAY.

JR · Jan 24, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

However you seem to be against the very premise of my idea in post #156: Equality, Fairness, and Balance on a Level Playing Ground for ALL players.

Because it was a bad idea?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatty Fatty Boomballati

Like bringing interupts to counter trapper balls? Or better yet frozen soil to counter IWAY.

That is to counter a BUILD, not a piece of EQUIPMENT. If you run a build, you are limited to that. The point to the henge helm is that it has a FAR superior advantage compared to any disadvantage it might have. You can just swap your helmet if you need to, you can't just change a build mid battle.